Any rich creationists out there who would like to fund this project? It's a big fat delusion but we'll deal with that when we get there though I've already answered the charge somewhere above. Meanwhile at least the claim that the phenomenon of Ring Species demonstrates macroevolution, and all similar and related arguments, should be dead and buried by this test. I think some of my terminology and description are probably not precisely accurate but I also think anyone who knows about the phenomena I'm trying to describe should understand what I'm getting at and perhaps be able to put it in more precise language.
And it doesn't affect the mechanics of the test I'm proposing anyway. Posted by Faith at PM. Richard December 4, at AM. Faith December 4, at PM. Lamarq March 13, at AM. Faith March 13, at PM. Newer Post Older Post Home. Subscribe to: Post Comments Atom. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water.
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
My other blogs. Faith's Corner. There's something very wrong with the thinking of a Christian who is more worried about being "fooled by God" in an erroneous judgment about, say, a radiometric dating conclusion than he is about being "fooled by God" in the Bible, very wrong because Christians supposedly believe the Bible to be inspired by God, but science is done by fallible human beings.
You want me to respect science. How can I respect Geology when it accepts the idea that a worldwide stack of different kinds of sedimentary rock represents different time periods of millions of years each, and that the bazillions of catastrophically tossed and tumbled dead things contained in them, often in batches of their own kind, represent particular life forms that lived in each "time" period -- all while smugly proclaiming "there is no evidence" for a global Flood.
This is so stupid it is amazing that it was ever entertained, but there it is, today's Dogma of Geology. I'm sure they do solid science in spite of it of course, kind of around and under and between it.
About This Blog What I want to do here is try to do my best job of stating my own favorite arguments against evolution. There are a couple I think really, logically speaking, ought to bring the whole system crashing down but of course it isn't that easy, human stubbornness being what it is. There's the geological argument which is basically that you can see with your naked eyes that this world once went through a global Flood, as the Bible reports. That takes care all by itself of the whole Old Earth theorizing that evolution depends on.
And there's the biological argument: It is known that genes DON'T increase although evolution depends on increase. Breeders certainly know this; and conservationists also know this because genetic depletion in highly specialized species such as the cheetah makes them vulnerable to extinction rather than candidates for further variation.
I hope to post on these and other arguments as time permits. We can follow out the same Rube-Goldberg sequence of improbable events, acting in a homologically graded series of imaginatively fleshed-out fossils, events that have never been observed in living reality, to the same preconceived conclusion you come to. Our problem is that we know it flies in the face of probability, reason, logic and any other law of rational inquiry and science that may exist, AND that there is no evidence for it, whereas design OBVIOUSLY implies a designer -- obviously, intuitively, rationally, logically, reasonably and probabilistically -- and I'd add "absolutely" if I could get away with it.
That's the main reason for doing it I think. Scientists have often expected to find evidence of Allele Frequencies Famous model for different types of speciation No, those aren't Transitionals. What exactly is proved by Ring Species? Richard Dawkins' new book: an inadequate attempt Richard Dawkins and Wendy Wright, continued: an ex Before I became a Christian I absorbed a lot of the thinking about evolution and tried my best to understand it.
Even then I was often frustrated that evidence trails could just about never be found or followed out to any kind of certainty and I found that I always had to give up trying to follow them and just take the conclusions of the scientists pretty much on faith. And you might want to read the OP. Ensatina is no longer considered a ring species in the strictest sense. You know why, because you can distinguish ring species formation from the ordinary mode due to the presence of isolation:.
Why not? Because genetic studies, done by both Dick Highton at Maryland and then by Wake and his colleagues themselves references below also showed that in places around the ring there were sharp genetic breaks, suggesting not a process of continuous gene flow over the million years it took to close the ring, but sporadic geographic breaks in the ring, so that the salamanders could differentiate without pesky gene flow from adjacent populations.
Finally, geologic work has shown that it is very unlikely that there were two unbroken forest corridors for those millions of years required to produce a ring. I think this is the same for epigenetics which is becoming more and more looked into and I find fascinating. Ultimately for most of these religiously obsessed ideologues, absolutely nothing will shake their faith, which generally is immune to evidence anyway.
So called allopatric speciation — in which the initial split between nascent species is caused by geographical isolation. In the mid 20th century, Ernst Mayr and Theodosius Dobzhansky championed the significance of circular overlaps or ring species as the perfect demonstration of speciation , yet in the over 50 years since, only a handful of such taxa are known. We developed a topographic model to evaluate whether the geographic barriers that favor processes leading to ring species are common or rare, and to predict where other candidate ring barriers might be found.
The persistence of the central geographic barrier is fundamental for ring diversification because it restricts movement of individuals to the ring distribution, thus promoting non-adaptive divergence through the initial colonization of available habitat, genetic drift of each local population, and limiting gene flow among continuous populations around the ring.
Do yourself a favor and send Dr. Wake an email with your questions. If you want to include geographical isolation within ring species then there is no OP and no thread. Consequently, if you want to make something of their being no known ring species then you necessarily have to limit yourself to the definition under which there are no ring species.
In that case, the mode of formation is different and your claim was wrong. Why you find it so hard to contemplate the fact you were wrong is beyond me.
OK, I figured out the problem. Meanwhile, the extant rings still have incremental variation-—now known to include significant breaks attributed to periods of reproductive isolation—can still interbreed except at their overlapping ends and possibly at the discovered genetic breaks , and currently maintain continuous gene flow again possibly not at the genetic breaks. But not what one can conclude from the OP, which this thread is about. So your conclusion was wrong. Not surprisingly, one of them is to this thread.
A cursory read of any text book and in fact, a better google search will make it clear allopatric is the most common mode of speciation, and therefor the typical, ordinary or normal mode against which to compare others.
If your claim is that there is no ordinary mode then you best take that up with Querius who made the claim in the first place. If there is some special definition of normal that would make speciation predictable then please explain. In your recent post on and earlier reviews of my book The Edge of Evolution you toss out a lot of words, but no calculations. Posit whatever favorable or neutral mutations you want.
Tell us about the effects of other genes, or population structures, if you think they matter much, or let us know if you disagree for some reason with a reported literature result.
Everyone is looking forward to seeing your calculations. Please keep the rhetoric to a minimum. My problem is with the claim that something is normal but not predictable. I find it absurd, to be honest. Is weather normal?
Can you predict whether it will rain three weeks from Wednesday? Can you predict where and when the next ones will occur? But perhaps you did. Hard as it might be for you to believe, I have no problem with genetic drift or a natural selection dynamic that changes gene frequency to the fuzzy point of speciation.
Wake never advocated, which you would know had you read his quote. IIRC, he restarted a weather simulation at a previous point only to find that it rapidly diverged from a previous simulation with the same ever so slightly rounded initial conditions. I think it was also Lorentz who then went on to calculate that if he were able to cover the earth with weather stations one meter apart, adding shells one meter higher out to the practical end of the atmosphere, weather prediction would be reliably extended out to perhaps a week.
That seemed to be what you were claiming in Which, as I said, I found hard to believe. I guess you were just plain wrong in disagreeing with him then? Or, at least, unaware of what was being said in the OP. Of course you do, why would you start playing dumb now unless to hide your lack of coherent reply? I never saw where he actually made any claims.
You dogmatically made a bold religious affirmation and he called you on it. Here is an example of speciation on Steroids otherwise known as variety. The fact is none of this need be debated. This is elementary school stuff. What we never ever get is a etched in stone example of a true honest to good authentic transitional, minus all the eastern religious mysticism thrown in to muddle definitions in we use in this Universe.
BTW, could you explain to me why people of Negro background in Africa are always depicted as the living transitional to the modern persons of European descent? Feel free to consult that religious icon hanging on your wall showing the March to Man. This is easy, in any debate or argument about evolution, definition shell games on words or terms are employed as a strategy and generally borrowed from another universe or dimension.
Also many of the evolutionist insistence on fact seems to draw from theological explanations from Pantheism. I predict that evolutionary explanations will always be comparable to Virga Clouds, lots of bluster and promise, but always failing to deliver.
Funny thing about Darwinian claims for hard evidence of transitionals, they all seem to evaporate into thin air when scrutinized:. But there is no particular reason to believe that they are on their way to becoming full time tetrapods or land dwellers. So we would need to be cautious about assuming that specific mechanisms that might be useful on land are definitive evidence of a definite, permanent move to full-time land dwelling.
Later in the video, Rodhocetus, perhaps the most important fossil in the hypothetical whale series, is revealed as fraudulent. Whale Evolution vs. Richard Dawkins Dumps the Fossil Record — May 18th, Excerpt: The dumping of the Archaeopteryx as a missing link between birds and reptiles by palaeontologists during the late twentieth century, however, was gaining solid support. Abandoning the Archaeopteryx as a transitional link was actually only a tip-of-the-iceberg of the larger fossil record problem for evolution.
Wow, the region in the northeastern Canadian Archipelago where this thing was discovered is loaded with creatures and plant life which actually exists today. Yet they all died a sudden and instant death. Beavers and beaver dams with crocodile-like fossils , Redwood Trees, pines, larch etc were found frozen in time by what some of those researchers called a mega-tsunami.
And yet we are to believe that all these creatures were descended from this mythical transitional? It would seem to me that whatever the extinction event up there in the north killed off everything all at once.
But oh no, we have fable fabricating soothsayers making up a myth about some creature in order to satisfy the approval of the Scientific Orthodoxy. Funny how all over the Earth, various mega-tsunamis scenarios are attributed for the extinction of certain ecosystems.
This is unbelievable. How can you lie like this? Every year articles come out us in all manner of scientific journals with this iconic religious image and not one ideologue in your church criticizes them for using this. Even Mike White, Paleoanthropologist out of Berkeley chastised his colleagues for their use of this and manufacturing of myths for no other reason than to gain notoriety and fame as a celebrity.
It seems like your mixed up though, the rocks Tiitalik comes from are much much older than the oldest Beaver or mammal or indeed amniote fossils. While popular media often reports that the fossil record is complete and conclusive, the technical scientific literature reveals this to be false.
In actuality, human-like fossils and ape-like fossil are clearly distinct from one another, and the so-called transitional fossil record is highly fragmented. The phyla are fully formed.
Scientific study turns understanding about evolution on its head — July 30, Excerpt: evolutionary biologists,,, looked at nearly one hundred fossil groups to test the notion that it takes groups of animals many millions of years to reach their maximum diversity of form. Contrary to popular belief, not all animal groups continued to evolve fundamentally new morphologies through time. The majority actually achieved their greatest diversity of form disparity relatively early in their histories.
What is equally surprising in our findings is that groups of animals are likely to show early-high disparity regardless of when they originated over the last half a billion years.
They are not, as a rule, led up to by a sequence of almost imperceptibly changing forerunners such as Darwin believed should be usual in evolution…This phenomenon becomes more universal and more intense as the hierarchy of categories is ascended. Gaps among known species are sporadic and often small.
Gaps among known orders, classes and phyla are systematic and almost always large. Simpson — one of the most influential American Paleontologist of the 20th century. But this is not what the paleontologist finds. Instead, he or she finds gaps in just about every phyletic series. At the risk of doing violence to the position of some people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No.
There are, arguably, some 2 to 10 million species on earth. The fossil record shows that most species survive somewhere between 3 and 5 million years.
In that case, we ought to be seeing small but significant numbers of originations new species.. American Scientist, pg. Scant search for the Maker Excerpt: But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours.
But throughout years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms.
Linton — emeritus professor of bacteriology, University of Bristol. Darwinians have long looked for missing links between sea animals and land animals to fulfill one of the major predictions of Darwinism. Department of Zoology, University of Colombia website.
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